Porto’s Champions League campaign is in disarray after a disastrous 4-0 defeat against Club Brugge. Ferran Jutglà won and converted a penalty in the 15th minute before Pepê Aquino missed a great chance to equalise.

The Belgian champions capitalised and ended the contest seven minutes into the second half after Kamal Sowah and Andreas Skov Olsen found the net. Antonio Nusa completed the rout in the 89th minute, sealing a sensational victory for Carl Hoefkens and his side.

PortuGOAL’s Matthew Marshall reports from Estádio Do Dragão.

Poor penalty to concede

Porto created the first two opportunities at the Dragão, Galeno dragging his shot wide and Evanilson unable to connect from close range. João Mário then broke clear from a Club Brugge free kick but couldn’t find the top corner.

The home crowd were shocked when the visitors took the lead in the 15th minute.

It was a routine ball that Pepe failed to nullify, João Mário coming across to deal with the threat posed by Ferran Jutglà and clumsily clattering into the striker. Referee Anastasios Sidiropoulos pointed to the spot, Jutglà stepping up and making no mistake.

Porto had a great chance to equalize in the 23rd minute after executing a slick team move. Otávio combined with Evanilson before releasing Pepê Aquino, but the Brazilian couldn’t convert a 1 on 1 opportunity with Simon Mignolet getting smothering his shot.

João Mário’s poor pass then gifted Kamal Sowah a chance, comfortably saved by Diogo Costa with the angle too tight. The crowd were getting increasingly restless, Hans Vanaken dragging his shot wide and Andreas Skov Olsen forcing a save from Costa to close out the half.

Game over before the hour mark

Sergio Conceição made two changes at the break as heavy rain streamed into the stadium. João Mário was replaced by Toni Martínez with Pepê moving to right-back, Danny Namaso coming on for Evanilson.

The changes made little difference however, especially to Porto’s defence which was looking increasingly porous and nervous with the ball. Within seven second half minutes the game was over.

Jutglà showed great strength to hold the ball up and release Sowah who slotted the ball past Costa. Bjorn Meijer’s cross then evaded everyone except Skov Olsen who finished at the back post.

The fans’ fury had been replaced by silence.

Brugge hungry for more

Club Brugge were toying with Porto who were looking visibly rattled and out of ideas. Conceição made two substitutions in the 62nd minute, Gonçalo Borges and Gabriel Veron on for Galeno and Otávio.

Martínez fired wide under heavy pressure from Abakar Sylla, the defender who had picked up a yellow card in the first half immediately replaced by Dedryck Boyata.

Roman Yaremchuk replaced Skov Olsen before Meijer and Jutglà made way for Eduard Sobol and Antonio Nusa. Wendell came on for Sanusi in the 76th minute.

David Carmo was booked for a late challenge on Nusa with Brugge going close from the resulting free kick. Casper Nielsen’s delivery was met by Yaremchuk, his header too close to Costa who was able to repel the danger.

Wendell was trying hard to get involved, his cross finding Danny Namaso who forced a reaction save from Mignolet.

Club Brugge were not done destroying Porto’s defence however. Raphael Onyedika found himself completely free and hit the post before the visitors deservedly made it 4-0 in the 89th minute.

David Carmo was the next member of Porto's backline to fall asleep, allowing Antonio Nusa to break clear, the 17-year-old latching onto Nielsen’s through ball and beating Costa.

Credit Club Brugge

Much of the focus will be on Porto losing the match in embarrassing fashion, but Club Brugge deserve credit for executing a well organised game plan including an effective high press. They have a number of top quality players including Andreas Skov Olsen, Hans Vanaken and Ferran Jutglà.

Kamal Sowah roamed across the front line, was dangerous throughout and never looked like missing when scoring their second goal.

After beating Bayer Leverkusen 1-0 in Brugge, the Belgian champions sit three points clear at the top of Group B.

Carl Hoefkens is enjoying an extremely positive start to his first job as head coach after spending three years as an assistant to Philippe Clement and Alfred Schreuder. His tactics were a big reason why his side came away with a memorable victoryand he is clearly a manager with a bright future.

Porto under the pump

Sergio Conceição made four changes to the team that won 3-0 against Chaves. Zaidu Sanusi, Pepe, Otávio & Evanilson returned to the starting side, Toni Martínez on the bench with Mehdi Taremi suspended.

Taremi’s unavailability is obviously a huge blow, the Iranian striker leads the way up front with his clever hold up play, interactions with teammates and scoring ability.

Pepê Aquino started next to Evanilson in attack, a decision that didn’t pay off. I’m not sure what Pepê’s best position is, but it’s not up front and it’s not in defence. We are seeing Conceição revert to the situation he created with Jesús Corona, namely a winger who can’t defend playing at right-back.

The 4-0 defeat is among Porto’s largest at home in European competitions and sits alongside the 5-0 defeat to Liverpool in 2018, 4-1 defeat to the Reds in 2019 and 5-1 loss to Liverpool last season, all under Conceição’s watch.

The loss was reminiscent of the recent 3-1 defeat against Rio Ave which was marred by individual errors in defence and sloppy finishing.

We saw Conceição make changes after that defeat in Vila do Conde and we will surely see more now, starting with more game time for Gabriel Veron, less for Pepê and the reintroduction of Marko Grujic in midfield.

The Dragons have a very tough run of fixtures until the end of October, including home games against Braga and Benfica in the Primeira Liga. With Champions League away games in Leverkusen and Brugge on the horizon, there is a real possibility their hopes of reaching the knockout rounds could already be over when they host Atletico Madrid on November 1st. 

 

Comments (27)

This comment was minimized by the moderator on the site

Hard to watch, really. I am not sure what to make of Conceicao's wild inconsistency in the Champions League. Big blowout losses but he also got Porto to nearly win the CL when we lost to eventual winners Chelsea.

On the one hand, the Porto SAD...

Hard to watch, really. I am not sure what to make of Conceicao's wild inconsistency in the Champions League. Big blowout losses but he also got Porto to nearly win the CL when we lost to eventual winners Chelsea.

On the one hand, the Porto SAD must be held to account for their disgusting fire sales of Porto's best players in 2 transfer windows.

On the other hand, there is definitely a problem with the Porto backline when it comes to the Champions League. I'm not sure what Grujic will do, as I personally find him to be a big flop in midfield, and Eustaquio has played brilliantly so far this season.

Surely there must be improvements to be made in defence, or at the very least, better tactical organization.

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Chris
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What can Conceição do in defence though apart from provide more cover from midfield?

Drop Pepe for Cardoso? Both players he is using at right-back have problems defending, is Manafa the answer?

Grujic was an important player when I saw him at...

What can Conceição do in defence though apart from provide more cover from midfield?

Drop Pepe for Cardoso? Both players he is using at right-back have problems defending, is Manafa the answer?

Grujic was an important player when I saw him at Hertha Berlin. He has physicality which is needed at the moment, maybe a run of games will see him gain confidnce.

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Matthew Marshall
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Agree to disagree. Grujic is big but he's hardly physical. Eustaquio is already a bigger impact and better passer.

Defence was a disorganized disaster. Pepe cannot be expected to start every game anymore and Porto should have bought a quality...

Agree to disagree. Grujic is big but he's hardly physical. Eustaquio is already a bigger impact and better passer.

Defence was a disorganized disaster. Pepe cannot be expected to start every game anymore and Porto should have bought a quality CB alongside Carmo as opposed to Sam Portugal.

Conceicao shoulders some of the blame, for sure for either underestimatibg Brugge or not motivating his players, but the SAD is the biggest culprits for selling our stars for peanuts and not reinvesting properly.

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Chris
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There are many 'big' clubs that have financial problems. Look at Juventus. I think what we are seeing is the effects of the pandemic catching up on clubs.

I think if Grujic can stay fit, get a run of games under his belt, and get that confidence...

There are many 'big' clubs that have financial problems. Look at Juventus. I think what we are seeing is the effects of the pandemic catching up on clubs.

I think if Grujic can stay fit, get a run of games under his belt, and get that confidence as we are seeing with Florentino and João Mário, he could be very useful for Porto.

One of Conceição's problems is that some players are almost automatic for every game. Pepê Aquino and Uribe two that spring to mind.

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Matthew Marshall
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Indeed, excellent points. I think that there is also a reason so many clubs were considering a European Super League: Financial Fair Play is a joke and the PSG and Man City's of the world can continue to spend without limits while even the big...

Indeed, excellent points. I think that there is also a reason so many clubs were considering a European Super League: Financial Fair Play is a joke and the PSG and Man City's of the world can continue to spend without limits while even the big traditional clubs struggle to hold onto their best players.

FIFA and UEFA need to be overthrown and a proper governing body established.

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Chris
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This was pretty embarrassing. I feel that Porto didn't do enough in the off season and are now paying for it. I'm not sure if that's due to financial fairplay restrictions or not. If Sergio Conceicao didn't have as much clout as he does , I'm...

This was pretty embarrassing. I feel that Porto didn't do enough in the off season and are now paying for it. I'm not sure if that's due to financial fairplay restrictions or not. If Sergio Conceicao didn't have as much clout as he does , I'm not sure he would still be the Porto coach today. Very dissapointing

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Filipe
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They are in the same financial boat as Sporting. Look what those clubs have sold and then bought.

The big difference is Amorim is a superior tactician than Conceição and better at bringing young players through.

Matthew Marshall
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Sorry Matthew, I'm going to have to also question this statement (respectfully).

Conceicao has 4 wins 4 draws and 1 loss head to head vs Amorim so that tactical assumption goes right out the window when you compare their records head to head.

...

Sorry Matthew, I'm going to have to also question this statement (respectfully).

Conceicao has 4 wins 4 draws and 1 loss head to head vs Amorim so that tactical assumption goes right out the window when you compare their records head to head.

Amorim uses a back 3 so I guess that's enough for some people to think he's tactically superior but the reality is Sergio has won the league 3 times and gotten to the CL knockouts with arguably some of Portos weakest squads.

I think it's high time he gets some recognition. I get he's a less likable figure to people than Amorim but his results speak for themselves.

As for youth players, Sergio is certainly no slouch here either as Joao Mario, Fabio V, Diogo Costa and Vitinha have all developed into world class players under his tutelage.

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Chris
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I can buy into most of that Chris, but I don't pay that much attention to HTH because of all the variables involved.

I wasn't taking anything away from Conceição's achievements or ability, I just think Amorim is a superior tactician, gets more...

I can buy into most of that Chris, but I don't pay that much attention to HTH because of all the variables involved.

I wasn't taking anything away from Conceição's achievements or ability, I just think Amorim is a superior tactician, gets more out of his players and develops them better.

You could make an argument that Diogo Costa, Vitinha and Fábio Vieira should have been brought into Porto's first team a lot earlier than they were.

You could also say that the three of them alongside João Mário were developed in Porto's and Portugal's youth teams, and Conceição didn't have anything to do with that, except cashing in on it and getting unfair credit for it.

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Matthew Marshall
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I don't know if I agree with that statement. Diogo Costa was given a chance and slowly brought along until he overtook Marchesin (an excellent keeper in his own right), as #1.

I used to take issue with Conceicao taking so long to give the...

I don't know if I agree with that statement. Diogo Costa was given a chance and slowly brought along until he overtook Marchesin (an excellent keeper in his own right), as #1.

I used to take issue with Conceicao taking so long to give the youth players a chance, but now I see he just doesn't give them a baptism by fire.

The same argument can be made about Amorim, it's not like he runs the youth team.

I like both coaches and I think they're both top level managers in both tactics and player management. I was one of the few who thought Varandas was taking a worthwhile risk in paying the $10 million buyout clause for Amorim.

It proved an excellent move. The issue now, as you laid out, is the righting of the financial ship by both clubs. Porto in particular, needs to clean out the SAD and get rid of all these leeches.

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Chris
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That can’t be correct as I vividly remember Amorim beating the entire big 3 with braga aswell as beating Porto in the cup so that h2h is off. There both great coaches. Difference is conceicao is a dime of dozen and Amorim has the potential to be...

That can’t be correct as I vividly remember Amorim beating the entire big 3 with braga aswell as beating Porto in the cup so that h2h is off. There both great coaches. Difference is conceicao is a dime of dozen and Amorim has the potential to be a unicorn. That’s why despite all conceicaos success no big clubs want him. When amorims contract is done big clubs may be lining up. Big clubs don’t want Conceicao. There’s plenty of coaches who have no offensive creativity and can set up a solid defensive system. Simeone, unai emery, conte, even wolves old coach santos is the same and there’s so many it’s hard to list them all. However guys like Amorim play to win no matter what, This is the mentality for a big club coach and while they don’t always do it as evidence by the beating they took from Ajax. He’s been beating far superior teams now for three years consistently while for the most part actually playing to win and trying to control the game with innovative tactics. This is very difficult to do. If he was just going to play Dortmund and Tottenham and benfica and Porto and parking the bus and winning on a counter attack believe me he wouldn’t be getting the attention he’s getting. There both great coaches but Amorim has the potential to be something special. Conceicao and his park the bus old school tactics doesn’t have the same ceiling.

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Justin
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So aside from hyperbole and your own personal opinions, do you have any objective points that place Amorim over Conceicao?

I get it, Amorim is a lot more likable, but aside from that, Conceicao has the better European pedigree, more League...

So aside from hyperbole and your own personal opinions, do you have any objective points that place Amorim over Conceicao?

I get it, Amorim is a lot more likable, but aside from that, Conceicao has the better European pedigree, more League titles and more trophies, and unlike Amorim, has coached outside of Portugal.

Those are the facts, which lie in stark opposition to that rambling mess of a paragraph you wrote.

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Chris
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No nothing else needs to be said. It’s subjective. I don’t have a horse in the race. I don’t care who wins more Portuguese titles. My point was Amorim has a higher ceiling and the better chance to coach a big club and go on to win actual titles...

No nothing else needs to be said. It’s subjective. I don’t have a horse in the race. I don’t care who wins more Portuguese titles. My point was Amorim has a higher ceiling and the better chance to coach a big club and go on to win actual titles that matter. Winning a Portuguese league with Porto is not impressive. Same for PSG etc.

Conceicao is supposed to win. What is he doing that all the other coaches in Porto for the last 20 years have done? He’s split league titles with Benfica. Just like portos record now for 20 years. I never said He wasn’t a good coach. I just agreed with a statement above that Amorim is a better tactician who can get more out of his players overal and not just defensively.

I stand by these words and our perspective doesn’t make it right. The next ten years does. If Conceicao proves me wrong and goes on to win titles in England and in Europe good on him and you for your accurate predictions. But I think it’s Amorim who has the better chance at this because I believe he’s much more flexible and adaptable as a tactician and coach and will thrive even outside of the Portuguese liga.

Winning for Sporting and Braga the way he has done over 3 years is miles more impressive then a few league titles for Porto. Last time I checked it had been two decades since sporting had won anything before he showed up and broke the streak with a starting eleven which more then half were made up of teenagers. I don’t have a big 3 favourite. I enjoy them all. But that job is much more impressive then anything Conceicao has done imo. And if Amorim goes to coach Porto or Benfica who I deem the much superior organizations then I imagine it starts a 3 or 4 years stretch like the ones we saw with Mourihno and Villas Boas where the best coach also gets the best roster and he won’t just win half the titles. He would win them all.

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Justin
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Glad to hear your honest assessment and concession of subjectivity. I too think Amorim can do well in other leagues, but that doesn't mean Conceicao would not either. For example, the year we booted Juve out of the Champions League, there were...

Glad to hear your honest assessment and concession of subjectivity. I too think Amorim can do well in other leagues, but that doesn't mean Conceicao would not either. For example, the year we booted Juve out of the Champions League, there were rumours that Juve was inquiring about his contract, which was not coincidentally, renewed after that season.

Despite the belief that Amorim is a better tactician, which I don't agree or disagree with (I think Sergio is much better than he is given credit for), there are other intangibles that determine success. For example, Conceicao would adapt well in Italy because he knows the league, the system and the language.

So, based on this fictional line of reasoning, I can make the argument that Amorim would be a failure compared to Conceicao in this hypothetical scenario. Therefore, all we can do is assess each manager by actual results, which is why I also disagree with Matthew's convenient dismissal of head to head. They are facts, plain and simple, not based on hypothetical situations.

And based on these facts, Conceicao is the better manager at the moment. You claim winning at Porto is expected, yet we saw a run of Lopetegui, Paulo Fonseca, Rui Barros, Jose Peseiro and Nuno Espirito Santo, all who failed to win anything with Porto. Therefore, and considering Porto's SAD has been disgustingly abyssmal for the last 6-7 years, I would say Conceicao has performed miracles.

For non-Porto fans, he's just not likable, but this is nothing new. Pepe has also been percieved this way, along with Bruno Alves, but the reality is, these guys have pedigree, even when put down and undermined by others.

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Chris
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One last thing, this non-sense about Conceicao being defensive and Amorim being some kind of offensive wunderkind is imaginary.

Liga Bwin Goals scored in 2020-21 (Sporting won the title)
Sporting goals scored: 65
Porto goals scored: 74


Liga...

One last thing, this non-sense about Conceicao being defensive and Amorim being some kind of offensive wunderkind is imaginary.

Liga Bwin Goals scored in 2020-21 (Sporting won the title)
Sporting goals scored: 65
Porto goals scored: 74


Liga Bwin Goals scored in 2021-22 (Porto won the title)
Sporting goals scored: 73
Porto goals scored: 86

So, there's another theory about Amorim out the window. In fact, in both these above mentioned seasons, Benfica scored more goals than Sporting as well (69 and 78, respectively).

It seems you have Conceicao and Amorim's presumptions reversed.

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Chris
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Again I don’t disagree with any of your opinions on Conceicao. Like I said I think he’s a good coach. It’s hard to make discussions like this when there’s a bias involved. I’m Portuguese and live in Portugal but I have no team. I cheer for the...

Again I don’t disagree with any of your opinions on Conceicao. Like I said I think he’s a good coach. It’s hard to make discussions like this when there’s a bias involved. I’m Portuguese and live in Portugal but I have no team. I cheer for the national team and for the big 3 when they play in Europe and I observe the Portuguese liga. I haven’t missed a big game for either Porto or Sporting or Benfica in a very long time.

In my unbiased opinion if these coaches have equal teams Amorim will be better in the long run. That’s my opinion. Portuguese tactics fashioned by Mourihno are outdated. Conceicao comes from that school. Winning is all that matters regardless of style. I disagree. In the short run it can get results but in the long run players and organizations get tired of playing like the underdog all the time especially in games the players believe they can actually win. Years ago when Mourihno and Pep had at that time a close comparison I said the same. And since then the rivalry hasn’t even been close. And funny enough despite all Mourihnos crying he spent more money during his united years then pep at city and got his ass kicked every year.

Soccer is changing. Coaches like Klopp and Pep have shown in the long run playing to win every match is more sustainable and a better way to have consistent success. You keep saying h2h but who cares. Mourihno has a good h2h with pep but teams and fans don’t care about that. I think every fan in the world would take peps trophy’s over mourihnos big game wins despite the fact he hasn’t won a damn thing since the shift to more offensive football has slowly taken over soccer.

Porto has a better team. A much better scouting system also. It’s not even close imo. In 20 years prior to Amorims arrival they won nothing. But since he’s arrived with an organization that was broke and had no titles he has won more then conceicao. That’s fact. Since he got to sporting he has 1 league and 2 cups in 2 seasons. Conceicao has one league and 1 cup.

And the biggest thing for me is development. The players Sporting sold since Amorim got there were ghosts before he arrived. Sporting had sucked in youth levels and nobody even knew who the likes of mendes and paulihna etc were. Portos stars from the last few years come from possibly the greatest youth team in the history of the club. Winning youth league champions leagues and dominating the rosters of the national youth teams. And before last year he was always known for not playing the kids and stunting there progress. One year of playing basically generational talents like vitihna and viera doesn’t change those concerns imo, Conceicao does not have the development skills Amorim possesses also imo. That’s why I said there both good but Amorim has a more diverse skill set imo and that makes his potential ceiling higher. I feel if he was coaching Porto you would change your tune very quickly?

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Justin
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Justin, you just claimed Mourinho spent more at Man U than Pep Fraudiola, the guy who has spent near £2 billion to win the Champions League and has failed miserably.

If he were more than just a hype job, he would have won a European Cup in the...

Justin, you just claimed Mourinho spent more at Man U than Pep Fraudiola, the guy who has spent near £2 billion to win the Champions League and has failed miserably.

If he were more than just a hype job, he would have won a European Cup in the last 13 years, something Mourinho has done twice in that time.

Klopp is another overrated manager. 8 seasons in charge, everyone loves him off, and he has 1 EPL title in that time. Pretty low standards if you ask me.

Anyways, your opinion is not unbiased, you have your own thoughts and conclusions such as "playing style being better than trophies" which is nonsense. Or applauding the great Fraudiola, who was hired by Bayern to win the Champions League and failed (they won it right before he arrived and then right after he left) and was hired by Man City aka Oil Corruption FC to win the CL and also failed miserably.

Respectfully, your opinion is based on what you like to watch vs results. Have a good one.

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Chris
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I think we can all shake hands and move on from the Amorim vs Conceição debate. Both managers have flaws, as we have seen this season.

As said previously, becuase of Amorim's age, this debate might only be decided after we are all six feet under...

I think we can all shake hands and move on from the Amorim vs Conceição debate. Both managers have flaws, as we have seen this season.

As said previously, becuase of Amorim's age, this debate might only be decided after we are all six feet under pushing up daisies.

One thing I will finish with is my opinion that Amorim would get a whole lote more out of this Porto squad, and I think if you put Conceição in charge of Sporting, I don't think he would get as much out of them as Amorim has done.

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Matthew Marshall
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Can't say I'm surprised to see the Conceicao pot shots still coming. Like I said, I know he's not likable to so called neutrals or opposition fans.

But aside from hypotheticals, no one can really question Conceicao's accomplishments.

While...

Can't say I'm surprised to see the Conceicao pot shots still coming. Like I said, I know he's not likable to so called neutrals or opposition fans.

But aside from hypotheticals, no one can really question Conceicao's accomplishments.

While you gents can continue to speak in hypothetical "what ifs", the reality is one manager has a significantly larger trophy cabinet than the other.

So far, no one has been able to negate this. Questions about defensive football and one being more offensive minded than the other were also easily dispelled with facts.

Amorim getting more out of a Porto squad is again, hypothetical. And Conceicao has had arguably some of the least talented players (with a few exceptions), of the last decade. Again, Lopetegui was given carte blanche, did nothing. Fonseca, Espirito Santo and others tried, and failed. So, it seems at the end of the day, what we really have is a dislike of the man for his temperament.

I think it would just be better for people to admit this truth rather than doing all the mental gymnastics that are easily dispelled with cold hard facts. Cheers gentlemen.

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Chris
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Of course it's hypotheticals and opinions, I am not sure why you would feel the need to point that out. I have nothing against Conceição I couldn't care less, almost every manager comes out with a bunch of bullshit excuses when his team loses...

Of course it's hypotheticals and opinions, I am not sure why you would feel the need to point that out. I have nothing against Conceição I couldn't care less, almost every manager comes out with a bunch of bullshit excuses when his team loses (Rio Ave, Atletico Madrid etc).

Instead of approaching it as such and stating your opinions which you have, you want to try and introduce some garbage stats and facts to back them up, when they are either simply incorrect or insignificant.

Your HTH (Amorim 1-4-4 Conceição) is incorrect, because you (I assume innocently) failed to include Amorim was 2-0 against Conceição while he was at Braga, which makes it 3-4-4. Like I oringinally said, pointless.

And you are trying to compare trophies won between two managers like it means something. It doesn't. Everyone with half a brain knows Amorim would have won just as many, if not more trophies if he was managing Porto as long as Conceição has.

Amorim is 37 and managed less than 150 games, he won the title with Sporting in 2020-21 which hadn't been done since 2001-02.

Conceição is 47 and managed over 450 games. Porto had won nine titiles between 2001-02 and 2017-18 when he took over.

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Matthew Marshall
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Fair enough with the inclusion of the Braga stats for Amorim, I take no issue and am happy to consider more info, but I don't think stats are "garbage" or insignificant just because they are true. The discussion was initially only covering each...

Fair enough with the inclusion of the Braga stats for Amorim, I take no issue and am happy to consider more info, but I don't think stats are "garbage" or insignificant just because they are true. The discussion was initially only covering each man's tenure as coaches of the big 3, but if you want to include SC's runs in Nantes, Olhanense and Braga as well, feel free to do so.

I just think it's a little disingenuous to make statements like one is a better tactician than the other or develops young players better, and place this above results. Results are what ultimately matter and what is recorded in history. For example, Amorim will be remembered as the man who broke the Sporting drought of 18 years. Why? Because that is factual, and a tangible piece of football history (and a very important one as well).

Amorim has a lot in his favour, no doubt, and I like the guy, but he has not yet reached the pedestal that you are putting him on, which is why this sentence: "Everyone with half a brain knows Amorim would have won just as many, if not more trophies if he was managing Porto as long as Conceição has." is telling. If you wish to imply that I am somehow naive or daft for disagreeing with your hyperbolic statement, that's fine. But again, this is placing greater weight on "potential" than results.

Managers with good pedigrees, who have gone on to manage big teams (Spain, Real Madrid, Sevilla, Tottenham, Roma, etc), came in and failed under the weight of Porto's expectations (which is another discussion altogether), and Amorim may have wilted in equal measure. It could have gone either way, which is why I think these "coulda, shoulda, woulda" arguments for Amorim are ludicrous.

I think we have determined that we're obviously going to come down on different sides of this discussion, which is both the great and also frustrating aspect of footy. The last point that I will make, is that while I tend to agree that Amorim has a good chance of succeeding down the line, he could also go in the direction of an AVB; a guy who started very young, made a huge impression and then fizzled out. Football fans, directors and owners are a fickle bunch, and being a manager in this climate, while very profitable, is a volatile position to be in.

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Chris
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Chris again you make very good points but you claim to be factual while we are making assumptions but the actual facts prove otherwise. You clearly have a bias. I do not. I am playing the real percentages which you claim to think you are but are...

Chris again you make very good points but you claim to be factual while we are making assumptions but the actual facts prove otherwise. You clearly have a bias. I do not. I am playing the real percentages which you claim to think you are but are not. I’m betting on Amorim being the more successful manager down the line because that’s where the odds point to. You however think you are but instead your betting against what’s probable because your a Porto fan.

In every non salary cap sport the richest teams win the most. Period! That’s why in every league the same handful of teams win every year. And not just in soccer in every sport without a salary cap. Clearly anyone who knows simple math and odds can see Braga and Sportings player value was significantly lower then Porto and Benfica since Amorim has started coaching. This is fact. And as a result he has the most trophies since entering the league with teams less valuable then the ones he beat.

Which is why an unbiased opinion is always important or you would’ve realized this. Does this mean he will definitely end up the better coach? No. But every statistic on the planet would show the odds of a coach winning with less talent should only increase his odds down the road if the talent and financial power the coach had was to increase. So as a neutral supporter I’m just playing the odds. I don’t like Amorim over Conceicao. It’s simple math. Like saying I would pick Real Madrid over Porto or Sporting etc. if Amorim is already winning the most with a less valuable team then the probabilities are exactly how Marshall stated. If his team gets better by going to Porto he should win more and the since Conceicao has the better team and still hasn’t won as much as him since Amorim started coaching then he will win less with Sporting. All of this is not guaranteed but these are actual hard mathematical facts. Anyone with basic math skills can realize why I would bet on Amorim when you look at the numbers. I don’t have a favourite. Unlike you I couldn’t care less who becomes better. I like them both. But gun to my head I’ll go with the odds.

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Justin
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In principle, I respect yours and Matthews opinions. What I do take issue with, is the not so subtle implications both of you make that people who hold a different opinion from you are borderline Neanderthals with half a brain or who can't do...

In principle, I respect yours and Matthews opinions. What I do take issue with, is the not so subtle implications both of you make that people who hold a different opinion from you are borderline Neanderthals with half a brain or who can't do math.

From a purely statistical perspective, I am not wrong, I merely laid out the facts as they are. Both of you have engaged in prognostication a and opinions and tried to pass this off as some concrete evidence when in reality, there is zero, I repeat zero proof to back up your claims and beliefs.

A manager who "wins with less valuable teams" is a new argument, and it seems you present new arguments and perform more mental gymnastics because you cannot combat the truth of the facts.

You also ignore that Conceicao brought stability and winning pedigree to a club that had not win anything with 5 different coaches, some of whom went on to manage Spain, Roma, Tottenham, etc. But apparently, that doesn't mean anything because despite righting the ship at Porto while constantly having your stars sold out from underneath you and still winning,means nothing.

Again, your opinions are not what I take issue with; it is the perceived piety and condescension coupled with lack of cohesive factual arguments that I find to be most unfortunate.

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Chris
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That’s fine. You gave us a bogus h2h as an argument which was way off and and then also continued to talk about a trophy cabinet? Amorim has more trophies since he started coaching then Conceicao so I really don’t understand. Conceicao has a...

That’s fine. You gave us a bogus h2h as an argument which was way off and and then also continued to talk about a trophy cabinet? Amorim has more trophies since he started coaching then Conceicao so I really don’t understand. Conceicao has a decade headstart why would it be impressive he has more trophies then a coach with 3 years under his belt? What did he win before Porto? I don’t remember much.

I can only speak for myself and I took no offence to anything you said however you have been the one taking huge offence to anyone claiming Amorim could be a superior coach to Conceicao. Really confused with your interpretation of this discussion. From the beginning I said it’s way too early to make concrete judgment but over the long run I think Amorim has the better ceiling. That’s my opinion. Period. I never made it personal. Somehow you morphed that statement into me being a Conceicao hater who has no respect for him and his tactics or his ability to develop aswell as not likening him because of his personality? Just because someone thinks one coach is superior doesn’t make them all the accusations I was accused by you of making when I never even mentioned any outside of direct comparison to Amorim. Didn’t say Conceicao couldn’t develop or make proper tactics. All I said was Amorim was better imho. Two very different things. If I prefer Messi over Ronaldo or vice versa that doesn’t mean I hate the other and think there a terrible soccer player and human being. Grow up man. We’re adults. Conceicao is a great coach. So is Amorim. You like a Conceicao more but im not on here accusing you of being some crazy nut who hates Amorim etc.

The way you can write shows your a very intelligent person. I would expect a more mature response tbh then attacking everything I said as being a result of some hatred I have with someone I don’t even know.

Anyways good luck with Porto rest of season
Cheers

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Justin
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I am glad you didn't take offence, because I haven't either. I simply was trying to separate fact from prognostication and I like consistent arguments. I think your opinion is valid, and you may be right that Amorim has a solid future ahead of...

I am glad you didn't take offence, because I haven't either. I simply was trying to separate fact from prognostication and I like consistent arguments. I think your opinion is valid, and you may be right that Amorim has a solid future ahead of him.

It is when you and Matthew began to blend your opinions with intangible "potential" factors that I disagreed and decided to separate fact from fiction. For example, the idea that Amorim has a more offensive approach, when every season, Porto has created more chances and scored more goals. You were wrong, and I had to correct that. I don't see you admitting this, or frankly making any concessions that you were inaccurate. Regarding head to head, I accepted yours and Matthews Braga inclusion, even though my understanding was that we were discussing only Sporting vs Porto tenures.

I also don't think it's right to claim I am taking offence when you and Matthew both insinuate that anyone with a differing opinion is basically stupid, as I made no implications about either of your intellects or you as people. I merely comment on your lines of reasoning, which I find flawed, or at least inconsistent with the stipulations you lay out based on what you each value.

This is just a game, and I value healthy discussion, without the need to question people's intelligence because they happen to have differing viewpoints. I don't need to wrap an insult in a compliment by calling someone intelligent and then question their maturity. I also have no qualms with being honest with myself and others when it comes to my thoughts.

Truth be told, despite being a Portista, I was quite troubled with Conceicao when he first took over Porto. I didn't care for his in your face, pass the buck attitude when things didn't go his way. But he has won me over and that is based on his results and continued success despite Porto selling off players like Alex Telles, Vitinha, Fabio V, Luis Diaz, Eder Militao, Andre Silva, Ricardo Pereria and Diogo Dalot to name but a few.

Amorim has so far proved that he cannot accomplish the same feat; that is, succeed when his best players are consistently sold off. He has struggled, but I don't necessarily blame him. He's a good.young coach, and he has the ability to make a good career for himself. But he hasn't proven that just yet, not even by your ever-shifting metrics.

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Chris
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I tried to end this discussion respectully days ago Chris, but you just won't stop with this incessant need to defend Conceição because you feel Justin and I somehow attacked him and your team.

And that was before I pointed out your incorrect...

I tried to end this discussion respectully days ago Chris, but you just won't stop with this incessant need to defend Conceição because you feel Justin and I somehow attacked him and your team.

And that was before I pointed out your incorrect HTH stats you think is so important. And now when confronted with the correct stats, you somehow think Amorim going 2-0 against Conceição while he was at Braga means nothing, when in fact it should count for double which would take Amorim ahead of Conceição in your precious HTH stats?

I've wasted enough of my time on this thread, which has basically gone nowhere except around in circles, I have better things to do and I am done with it.

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Matthew Marshall
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1. I accepted your inclusion of the Braga games multiple times in this discussion, I am not sure why you are trying to claim the opposite.

2. Thank you for proving my point about how both of you gentlemen try to make your opinions fact. Now...

1. I accepted your inclusion of the Braga games multiple times in this discussion, I am not sure why you are trying to claim the opposite.

2. Thank you for proving my point about how both of you gentlemen try to make your opinions fact. Now apparently the 2 Braga wins count for double....because you believe they should. This is too good to make up. Mathematics don't care about opinions, they are not synonymous.

3. I don't feel attacked, nor do I feel Porto was attacked, at this point, you're choosing to ignore what I have been saying and it seems, just like with the Fernando Santos defense piece you wrote, you have a hard time with people disagreeing with your viewpoints.

I enjoy your contributions to PortuGOAL. But that does not mean that I will agree with your view on everything, I think it's better to be honest and respectful than to just be a yes man and pretend you are correct about everything. There's no shame in disagreeing or offering different perspectives, it doesn't mean people feel attacked or that they don't value your opinion. It just means they don't see things exactly as you do.

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Chris
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